Spring 1988
By John Thomas
In the spring of 1988 I had an opportunity to interview Mary T. Meagher. Taking time from her busy training schedule, she came to Minnesota to speak at the annual All State Swimming Banquet at the University of Minnesota. Arriving early for this engagement, I took the opportunity to talk about her swimming career. Our discussion was candid and very relaxed, talking about what she’s done to get to this point. Everything was going to change quickly with the 1988 Olympics coming in the fall, in preparation to attend her last Olympiad, her training was intensifying.
At the time of this interview, Mary T was the world record holder in the 100 fly at 57.93 and 200 fly at 2:05.96. She had achieved both these times in 1981 at the Schroeder Aquatic Center in Brown Deer, Wisconsin. No swimmer in recent history has so dominated her event in the world of swimming.
Justifiably nicknamed “Madame Butterfly” by the press, Mary T was the fastest butterflyer in the world for 6 years in a row. At one time she held eleven of the world’s fastest times in the 200 meter fly and eight in the 100. Her fly world records still remain unchallenged by any other swimmer.
At the 1989 Minnesota Summer State meet, Mary T returned to be the awards presenter. The question and answers she gave in this interview should give swimmers in the state a better idea of the kind of person she is. World Record holders have many of the same feeling and problems that all swimmers have. Enjoy meeting with Mary T.
As an age grouper is there any factors that you had at that time that lead to your success as a senior swimmer?
MT- I think I had a natural ability at a young age to do the butterfly and freestyle. I guess this carried over and was nice to have. It was a blessing that I was very naïve about swimming and wasn’t swimming to go to the Olympics or to hold a world record or anything along those lines. I was swimming because I loved it and I did well. I would go to dual meets, the city meets and might or might not win. My coach would say, “There’s a state meet coming up next week, why don’t you participate in that.” Sometimes I would say no. I never realized what it was going to bring for me. I just took it one step at a time. I think that was real helpful.
Many very good age group swimmers have parents that ask how much training their young swimmers should do, and when they need to get serious about their swimming. When did you really get serious about your swimming?
MT- Well, I guess because I did well at a young age, I usually was ready to put a little more time in every year. I was swimming 3 times a week until I was 11 years old. Then once every day year round when I was 12. At 13, almost 14, my coach sat me down and said I had to give up all the other sports I was playing and just swim. I cried but I decided what I wanted to do.
What other sports did you participate in?
MT- Oh Gosh! I was a cheerleader, played volleyball, basketball and softball. We lived right next to the school I went to, so I had access to any team I really wanted to. Every season had its sport and I did it.
Many of our readers are from the Midwest and are making it to the national scene. They see a majority of swimmer are from the coasts. Can you say anything about where you are from?
MT- It’s funny, I guess because there were two really big rival teams where I was from that produced a lot of national caliber swimmers, and that gave Kentucky some exposure. For the past 20 years we’ve always had someone on the Olympic team. So it wasn’t that new, but still people were surprised. You know when you go to the national meets and the press asks you, “Do they even have a pool in Louisville?” I got a little of that but not quite as much as you get up here in Minnesota.
When did people start calling you Mary T?
MT- What happened was I had 11 children in my family (10 Girls) and I’m one of the youngest ones. The oldest one is Mary Glen. She was going into the convent when I was born and my parents figured she would have to change her name to Sister ______. You had to change your name back then so they thought they were losing on Mary. She decided not to become a nun, so we had two Marys in the family. It was confusing. They called me Mary T and she went by Mary Glen. That’s how it happened.
A few years back you had a physical profile done on you by “Shape magazine”. It was impressive. It showed how flexible and strong you were. This obviously was a time that you were training hard with weights. Is that how these figures were so high or was it something that you were strong at?
MT- Well, I think it was something that came very naturally. Actually much of it came with doing a lot of other sports. I did gymnastics too. It probably helped in not only my flexibility, but in my strength, you need in your back and stomach to do butterfly. I’m forcing myself to do a whole lot of stretching, which I always did when I was younger, because I played all these other sports. I can’t say I still have that same flexibility, but I have to work at it. I think that’s one of the problems I’m dealing with right now. I’m having problems with my shoulders and different parts of my body I’ve never had problems with before. But I took 5 months off.
Did you come back too hard after your layoff?
MT- No, I think that period of inactivity caused me to lose a lot of my flexibility, strength and tone. You know those were a lot of things I carried over from my youth but now I’m not young anymore. When you lose them they may be gone. You have to work real hard to get them back up. Yes, I'm hoping that is the case, that I’ll get them back.
Why did you go to California to swim?
MT- I was choosing a college based on many of factors other than swimming. I wanted a strong swimming program; I was also looking at a good academic school. A good location, I loved big cities and parks, things like that, and Cal Berkeley was one of the best situations. Best of both worlds. I had always been in a private-parochial school and wanted a huge college where no one would know me from the next person. Cal Berkeley gave me the best of everything I was looking for at the time.
Of all the different meets you’ve been in which one has the fondest memories?
MT- I think Brown Deer, Wisconsin. That’s where I last set my world record. That meet was just real fun. Not only because of how well I did but I didn’t have any pressure going in. I hadn’t trained as much that year as I had the year before, and I think people didn’t expect as much or at least I didn’t expect as much of me. Everything in my life was going really well. I had a boyfriend at the time, my family life was going well, and just everything was great. I was on cloud 9. I swam well and left with great feelings.
Breaking a world record helps?
MT- yes! That was nice. Kind of like frosting on the cake.
When was that?
MT- 1981, I was 16, a junior in high school.
When you started dropping time as a 13 and 14 year old until you were 16, you had 2 years there when you were always going faster.
MT- Right, 1979 I set my first world record and then for 2 years I dropped the time even more.
But even up to that point when you started at 13 you must have been going fast.
MT- Oh! I had a big drop from summer of 1978 to summer of 1979—10 seconds in the 200 and 2 or 2 seconds in the100.
Are you faster in meters?
MT- I considered myself that. Now I’m not sure. Before I was so much better at just getting into a pace and going. I don’t do that as well anymore. In college we worked so much on turns, improved a whole lot from working on them so much. You know I don’t necessarily consider myself stronger in meters. About equal. Now I’m trying to convince myself that I can do it again the way I used to do. A lot of factors that I can’t control have to fall into place. So we’ll see.
When you think about an age group swimmer breaking a record or going there fastest time, does it fell any different breaking a world record?
MT- If I were to do it again it would feel much different. You know I've sat out for so long to do it. But I have found that everything is so relative. It’s so funny when I give a clinic and the kids say “I can hardly control the nerves at the state meet, how can you do it at the Olympics.” I was just as nervous at the state meet as I was at the Olympics. It was the same way, the first couple of times I broke the world record. It was great and a big thrill but I don’t remember it being much more than when I broke a state record.
Was it more so afterwards?
MT- Exactly, I think as you see the press, not only the local, but by people all over the world. People are wanting to talk to you. After you do it a couple of times you go, wow, this is a little bit larger scale.
Did you swim high school?
MT- Yes, hardly.
Did you have any nation High School records?
MT-No, I did poorly in the high school meets.
The Los Angeles Olympics must have been a big thrill. Can you tell us anything significant about that competition?
MT- one of the fondest memories of the LA games was having my whole family there. And not just having them there, they were having the best time. It was so fun for me to be able to switch my focus from swimming and the pressures and the question from the reporters to just seeing my family kicking back, going out playing golf having family tournaments once you get to know my family they’re pretty ridiculous. The have so much fun. Don’t care too much who wins. They are competitive. There are many stories that are still told from those Olympics of what happened at the fraternity house they rented. They all stayed on the top floor of the SAE house at USC. There are stories still told about jokes people played on each other and discussions that took place. It was a big family reunion. I wish I could have been a bigger part of it. Every time they start to tell stories, I jus sit there and listen.
A lot of pressure at that meet?
MT- I didn’t realize how much there was until, all of a sudden, after I won my first gold medal. I felt so relieved and felt one hundred pounds lighter. That’s when I realized that I guess. Before I’d say there wasn’t much pressure. I think a lot had to do with not having the East Germans there. They were my main completion. So I kind of felt like I’d do my best, but winning wasn’t going to be everything. Pressure came from a lot of the reporters asking question like, after giving up a year of school are you finally going to break a world record. Yes, and that was that was after 3 years!
You were favored going into it?
MT- It’s kind of a no win situation, unless I won both events and set a world record in both. I think that was kind of hard. Even one of my better memories was that I enjoyed it. I loved winning and am thankful that I did that well, but still I didn’t do as well as everyone expected. You’re supposed to have you best time at the Olympics, and I didn’t.
What is the strong part of your butterfly? Right after you were in the Olympics, at the World Coaches Clinic, Ernie Maglisco had digitized you and talked about your stroke saying how powerful you were during your catch. It that something that is natural?
MT-Yes, in fact it’s something that I think I’ve become confused about because of all the different studies that have been done. Before it was so natural, but now what I do in the water, or what I fell like I do in the water doesn’t look like what the pictures show. So when I hear someone say, oh her catch is so high in front, I’ll think well it should be higher, maybe that’s what I used to do. That’s not good. I used to come down straight. If I kind of felt it go, maybe it will come back again.
What did your coaches tell you to do? What key word did they use in the butterfly for you?
MT- Mainly what they used to tell me was when I’m not tired, I’m OK and when I do get tired to make sure I get a press through all the way and make sure that I extend all the way out in front. That used to be the only thing. Now it’s more that my key is in my legs. My coach makes me, when I start getting tired, depend more on my legs, keeping me high in the water, keep my rhythm and keep the back part of my stroke.
I know kicking is important and many kids don’t like to do it because it is so hard.
MT-When your kick is strong it makes your butterfly easier to do. I’ve been struggling so much, it has really helped.
Do you think stroke analysis is important when it comes down to teaching strokes or is it natural for a swimmer to be a good flyer?
MT- I think its so important for someone to be naturally talented, but you can teach people a certain amount, and for someone who can't do it naturally, tell them exactly how to do it. I think it has to be remembered, at least as I have found, what I do underwater, or what I feel like I do underwater, isn’t what the pictures show at all. As far as I know, I enter my hands and pull straight back. The films don’t show that. The films show that I go out and around.
Do you train distance fly?
MT- I do repeats of up to 800 fly, usually 300 or 400 when I was younger. Now I don’t go past a 300 straight fly. My sets are anywhere between 1200 to 2400 straight fly. I moved more toward the 1200 distance.
You were pretty much a flyer when you started?
In the spring of 1988 I had an opportunity to interview Mary T. Meagher. Taking time from her busy training schedule, she came to Minnesota to speak at the annual All State Swimming Banquet at the University of Minnesota. Arriving early for this engagement, I took the opportunity to talk about her swimming career. Our discussion was candid and very relaxed, talking about what she’s done to get to this point. Everything was going to change quickly with the 1988 Olympics coming in the fall, in preparation to attend her last Olympiad, her training was intensifying.
At the time of this interview, Mary T was the world record holder in the 100 fly at 57.93 and 200 fly at 2:05.96. She had achieved both these times in 1981 at the Schroeder Aquatic Center in Brown Deer, Wisconsin. No swimmer in recent history has so dominated her event in the world of swimming.
Justifiably nicknamed “Madame Butterfly” by the press, Mary T was the fastest butterflyer in the world for 6 years in a row. At one time she held eleven of the world’s fastest times in the 200 meter fly and eight in the 100. Her fly world records still remain unchallenged by any other swimmer.
At the 1989 Minnesota Summer State meet, Mary T returned to be the awards presenter. The question and answers she gave in this interview should give swimmers in the state a better idea of the kind of person she is. World Record holders have many of the same feeling and problems that all swimmers have. Enjoy meeting with Mary T.
As an age grouper is there any factors that you had at that time that lead to your success as a senior swimmer?
MT- I think I had a natural ability at a young age to do the butterfly and freestyle. I guess this carried over and was nice to have. It was a blessing that I was very naïve about swimming and wasn’t swimming to go to the Olympics or to hold a world record or anything along those lines. I was swimming because I loved it and I did well. I would go to dual meets, the city meets and might or might not win. My coach would say, “There’s a state meet coming up next week, why don’t you participate in that.” Sometimes I would say no. I never realized what it was going to bring for me. I just took it one step at a time. I think that was real helpful.
Many very good age group swimmers have parents that ask how much training their young swimmers should do, and when they need to get serious about their swimming. When did you really get serious about your swimming?
MT- Well, I guess because I did well at a young age, I usually was ready to put a little more time in every year. I was swimming 3 times a week until I was 11 years old. Then once every day year round when I was 12. At 13, almost 14, my coach sat me down and said I had to give up all the other sports I was playing and just swim. I cried but I decided what I wanted to do.
What other sports did you participate in?
MT- Oh Gosh! I was a cheerleader, played volleyball, basketball and softball. We lived right next to the school I went to, so I had access to any team I really wanted to. Every season had its sport and I did it.
Many of our readers are from the Midwest and are making it to the national scene. They see a majority of swimmer are from the coasts. Can you say anything about where you are from?
MT- It’s funny, I guess because there were two really big rival teams where I was from that produced a lot of national caliber swimmers, and that gave Kentucky some exposure. For the past 20 years we’ve always had someone on the Olympic team. So it wasn’t that new, but still people were surprised. You know when you go to the national meets and the press asks you, “Do they even have a pool in Louisville?” I got a little of that but not quite as much as you get up here in Minnesota.
When did people start calling you Mary T?
MT- What happened was I had 11 children in my family (10 Girls) and I’m one of the youngest ones. The oldest one is Mary Glen. She was going into the convent when I was born and my parents figured she would have to change her name to Sister ______. You had to change your name back then so they thought they were losing on Mary. She decided not to become a nun, so we had two Marys in the family. It was confusing. They called me Mary T and she went by Mary Glen. That’s how it happened.
A few years back you had a physical profile done on you by “Shape magazine”. It was impressive. It showed how flexible and strong you were. This obviously was a time that you were training hard with weights. Is that how these figures were so high or was it something that you were strong at?
MT- Well, I think it was something that came very naturally. Actually much of it came with doing a lot of other sports. I did gymnastics too. It probably helped in not only my flexibility, but in my strength, you need in your back and stomach to do butterfly. I’m forcing myself to do a whole lot of stretching, which I always did when I was younger, because I played all these other sports. I can’t say I still have that same flexibility, but I have to work at it. I think that’s one of the problems I’m dealing with right now. I’m having problems with my shoulders and different parts of my body I’ve never had problems with before. But I took 5 months off.
Did you come back too hard after your layoff?
MT- No, I think that period of inactivity caused me to lose a lot of my flexibility, strength and tone. You know those were a lot of things I carried over from my youth but now I’m not young anymore. When you lose them they may be gone. You have to work real hard to get them back up. Yes, I'm hoping that is the case, that I’ll get them back.
Why did you go to California to swim?
MT- I was choosing a college based on many of factors other than swimming. I wanted a strong swimming program; I was also looking at a good academic school. A good location, I loved big cities and parks, things like that, and Cal Berkeley was one of the best situations. Best of both worlds. I had always been in a private-parochial school and wanted a huge college where no one would know me from the next person. Cal Berkeley gave me the best of everything I was looking for at the time.
Of all the different meets you’ve been in which one has the fondest memories?
MT- I think Brown Deer, Wisconsin. That’s where I last set my world record. That meet was just real fun. Not only because of how well I did but I didn’t have any pressure going in. I hadn’t trained as much that year as I had the year before, and I think people didn’t expect as much or at least I didn’t expect as much of me. Everything in my life was going really well. I had a boyfriend at the time, my family life was going well, and just everything was great. I was on cloud 9. I swam well and left with great feelings.
Breaking a world record helps?
MT- yes! That was nice. Kind of like frosting on the cake.
When was that?
MT- 1981, I was 16, a junior in high school.
When you started dropping time as a 13 and 14 year old until you were 16, you had 2 years there when you were always going faster.
MT- Right, 1979 I set my first world record and then for 2 years I dropped the time even more.
But even up to that point when you started at 13 you must have been going fast.
MT- Oh! I had a big drop from summer of 1978 to summer of 1979—10 seconds in the 200 and 2 or 2 seconds in the100.
Are you faster in meters?
MT- I considered myself that. Now I’m not sure. Before I was so much better at just getting into a pace and going. I don’t do that as well anymore. In college we worked so much on turns, improved a whole lot from working on them so much. You know I don’t necessarily consider myself stronger in meters. About equal. Now I’m trying to convince myself that I can do it again the way I used to do. A lot of factors that I can’t control have to fall into place. So we’ll see.
When you think about an age group swimmer breaking a record or going there fastest time, does it fell any different breaking a world record?
MT- If I were to do it again it would feel much different. You know I've sat out for so long to do it. But I have found that everything is so relative. It’s so funny when I give a clinic and the kids say “I can hardly control the nerves at the state meet, how can you do it at the Olympics.” I was just as nervous at the state meet as I was at the Olympics. It was the same way, the first couple of times I broke the world record. It was great and a big thrill but I don’t remember it being much more than when I broke a state record.
Was it more so afterwards?
MT- Exactly, I think as you see the press, not only the local, but by people all over the world. People are wanting to talk to you. After you do it a couple of times you go, wow, this is a little bit larger scale.
Did you swim high school?
MT- Yes, hardly.
Did you have any nation High School records?
MT-No, I did poorly in the high school meets.
The Los Angeles Olympics must have been a big thrill. Can you tell us anything significant about that competition?
MT- one of the fondest memories of the LA games was having my whole family there. And not just having them there, they were having the best time. It was so fun for me to be able to switch my focus from swimming and the pressures and the question from the reporters to just seeing my family kicking back, going out playing golf having family tournaments once you get to know my family they’re pretty ridiculous. The have so much fun. Don’t care too much who wins. They are competitive. There are many stories that are still told from those Olympics of what happened at the fraternity house they rented. They all stayed on the top floor of the SAE house at USC. There are stories still told about jokes people played on each other and discussions that took place. It was a big family reunion. I wish I could have been a bigger part of it. Every time they start to tell stories, I jus sit there and listen.
A lot of pressure at that meet?
MT- I didn’t realize how much there was until, all of a sudden, after I won my first gold medal. I felt so relieved and felt one hundred pounds lighter. That’s when I realized that I guess. Before I’d say there wasn’t much pressure. I think a lot had to do with not having the East Germans there. They were my main completion. So I kind of felt like I’d do my best, but winning wasn’t going to be everything. Pressure came from a lot of the reporters asking question like, after giving up a year of school are you finally going to break a world record. Yes, and that was that was after 3 years!
You were favored going into it?
MT- It’s kind of a no win situation, unless I won both events and set a world record in both. I think that was kind of hard. Even one of my better memories was that I enjoyed it. I loved winning and am thankful that I did that well, but still I didn’t do as well as everyone expected. You’re supposed to have you best time at the Olympics, and I didn’t.
What is the strong part of your butterfly? Right after you were in the Olympics, at the World Coaches Clinic, Ernie Maglisco had digitized you and talked about your stroke saying how powerful you were during your catch. It that something that is natural?
MT-Yes, in fact it’s something that I think I’ve become confused about because of all the different studies that have been done. Before it was so natural, but now what I do in the water, or what I fell like I do in the water doesn’t look like what the pictures show. So when I hear someone say, oh her catch is so high in front, I’ll think well it should be higher, maybe that’s what I used to do. That’s not good. I used to come down straight. If I kind of felt it go, maybe it will come back again.
What did your coaches tell you to do? What key word did they use in the butterfly for you?
MT- Mainly what they used to tell me was when I’m not tired, I’m OK and when I do get tired to make sure I get a press through all the way and make sure that I extend all the way out in front. That used to be the only thing. Now it’s more that my key is in my legs. My coach makes me, when I start getting tired, depend more on my legs, keeping me high in the water, keep my rhythm and keep the back part of my stroke.
I know kicking is important and many kids don’t like to do it because it is so hard.
MT-When your kick is strong it makes your butterfly easier to do. I’ve been struggling so much, it has really helped.
Do you think stroke analysis is important when it comes down to teaching strokes or is it natural for a swimmer to be a good flyer?
MT- I think its so important for someone to be naturally talented, but you can teach people a certain amount, and for someone who can't do it naturally, tell them exactly how to do it. I think it has to be remembered, at least as I have found, what I do underwater, or what I feel like I do underwater, isn’t what the pictures show at all. As far as I know, I enter my hands and pull straight back. The films don’t show that. The films show that I go out and around.
Do you train distance fly?
MT- I do repeats of up to 800 fly, usually 300 or 400 when I was younger. Now I don’t go past a 300 straight fly. My sets are anywhere between 1200 to 2400 straight fly. I moved more toward the 1200 distance.
You were pretty much a flyer when you started?
MT- Yes, always, it picked me, I didn’t pick it.
Epilogue, July 2009
I was surprised reading this interview, after many years, that I didn’t include something that she said that I’ve told many people trying to perform at the top of their game. Before and sometime during her major competition a thought would come to her that could have adversely affected its outcome. That thought was, “What am I going to tell the reporters if I don’t break my world record?”
Breaking a record means that you are performing at the top of your game. Anything that takes you off that high level of concentration could change the results. Could you lose precious tenths of a second by thinking about a question like this half way through your race? When she was at Brown Deer, she had nothing to think about but feeling good. There a lesson to be learned, it is critical to be focus on all the positive aspects of your performance and feel good.
